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The Conspiracy Behind Government Ammunition Purchases

Like anyone, I love a good conspiracy, especially when it suggests something along the lines of dark government forces working at some level to destroy our liberty (or at least blaming them for Alar in apples). Of late, one can’t seem to log on to Facebook or any gun forum without seeing predictions of our impending doom because some government branch has posted a contract bid for ammunition – the latest being the Department of Homeland Security’s bid for 141,000 rounds of “sniper” ammo.

Remington 700 LTR

Granted, if I knew nothing about firearms, ammunition or the industry, I’d probably think the sky was falling too. Problem is that I do know a little something about the industry, so I’m less than impressed with the presentation. Let me break it down for you:

  • 141,000-rounds of ammo comes to 1000-rounds per 141 snipers.
  • If one considers that DHS has under its umbrella the Border Patrol, Coast Guard Auxiliary, Secret Service, FEMA, and the Customs Service, it quickly becomes evident that they have far more than 141 snipers in their ranks. I tried a quick web search on it and the total number wasn’t something I could come up with, but my guess is that the Border Patrol/ICE has at least that many of its own. The 141,000-rounds are most likely for a single unit of snipers in one branch of DHS. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
  • In the article, the author tries to insinuate that the purchase of 168-grain .308 is of nefarious origins because other bullets could be had for less money. Yes, others can be purchased cheaper, but anyone who knows anything about long-range, bolt-action shooting will agree that you don’t practice with cheap ammo and then hunt or snipe with the good stuff. You do all of your shooting with the good stuff because you need to gather data on your rifle and ammunition combination. Snipers are introduced into a violent confrontation with no warm ups or practice shots. They need to know exactly what their bullet will do under the wind, temperature, distance, etc they face when called into action. Personally, I don’t want them practicing with any ammo other than what they would use to brainstem a hostage taker who has one of my loved ones on the end of their knife.

In reality, 141,000-rounds of .308 is barely a drop in the bucket of what they should be burning up in a year. We can all stop panicking about it.

Next…

The author also mentions the recent purchase of DHS .40 hollow point handgun ammunition. Federal regulations state that all practice and qualification are to be done with duty rounds. As a trainer, I couldn’t agree more – we should all be training using full-power loads in order to better learn to manage recoil.

As a private citizen, I can’t afford to (what? You either? …Of course, if Corbon wanted to send me 20 cases of free ammo a year, I’d run it…but I digress). When it’s our tax dollars, money often tends to be no object with government agencies and the implementation of their regulations. Yes, they ordered around 430-million rounds, but that’s not all at once, it’s to be spread out over 5-years. Also, when you consider that DHS has over 300,000 employees (obviously not all are armed, probably less are than aren’t) you can come up with a number that looks like a bare minimum for yearly practice per agent. Sure, I’m speculating a bit, but on the side of reason rather than fear-based conjecture.

My practical comment to the .40 hollow points issue is this: Do you really think the US government is planning to declare martial law on its citizens and enforce it with handguns? We should be so lucky! The armed population of the United States outnumbers all of the world’s militaries COMBINED! I don’t know about you, but that makes me sleep better at night. Handguns will not win that fight.

Election cycles and legislative threats have caused ripples (and tsunamis) in the ammunition market over the last decade – it’s nothing new. Only recently have the shelves at most gun stores started to look somewhat normal again, well over a year after Sandy Hook. .22 is still in short supply, and manufacturers are still running 3 shifts. Remember, the government buys their ammo from the same suppliers you and I do. And believe it or not, there are some purchasing agents that actually try to plan ahead; especially when they find their shelves bare and re-supply a year out because of the latest panic. Last year I personally donated a case of 9mm to a local PD because they were absolutely out of ammunition and needed to get their staff through qualification. Government agencies are learning the same lesson we all are: If you don’t already have it, you won’t get it during a panic.

With that in mind, and the 2014 and 16 elections coming up, we should all be keeping our stockpiles high as there are bound to be shortages. So, yes – Have ammo! If you see it, and you can afford it, buy it. But if your motivation to do so is that the government is gearing up to jackboot you in the dark of night, then you’re probably vesting yourself into a whole bunch of needless stress. I’m not saying it could never happen, I’m just saying they’re still not ordering enough ammo.

Next time you read one of these panic-laced articles, web search the agency’s employee numbers and find out how many are armed and what their qualification requirements are, then do the math. You might be surprised at how much sense it actually makes.

110 Responses to The Conspiracy Behind Government Ammunition Purchases

  1. Shane February 13, 2014 at 10:04 am #

    Awesome article as usual.

  2. HillBilly Bob February 13, 2014 at 10:10 am #

    I never put any stock in the crazy conspiracy stories, the FEMA burial grounds for 5 million people or anything Alex Jones spews out of his mouth
    I do however wish I had 141,000 rounds of .308 so if DHS needs a storage space for part of their martial law killing spree I have a big barn that they can store some of it in

    • Jake February 13, 2014 at 11:25 am #

      Bingo – I wish we could get in on these ammo group buys.

  3. Jerry Rivas February 13, 2014 at 1:58 pm #

    One man’s conjecture is another man’s…conjecture? Author criticizes others for not doing research and coming up with facts to support logic. He is guilty of the same. Spare me, please.

    • Frank Sharpe February 13, 2014 at 2:26 pm #

      ok, we’ll take the low number route – 100,000 armed DHS agents. That comes to 4,300-rounds per agent, divided by 5 equals 860-rounds a year. Hardly a stellar amount of practice.

      My students shoot 800 over a weekend.

      Any other brilliant points you’d like to make? …perhaps something about the lunar landing being faked…or lizard aliens are actually running things?

      Those who know me, and those who have read things I’ve written in the past know I’m in no way a government cheerleader. I’m as Libertarian as they come, and I have zero faith or trust in most anything government does. But the fact remains, they simply do not have the manpower or resources to take the American public on in a gunfight…nor are “they” planning on it. (It’s almost like that whole Article II/checks and balances thing works!)

      Preparation for civil unrest due to economic failures…or weather disasters…sure – let’s talk. Those are practical matters all of us should have a back-up plan for. But if, on even an outside chance, there is some small group in the government planning on attacking the American public, all I can say is good luck with that. It’s an absolute pipe dream.

      • craigslistrr O February 23, 2014 at 12:02 am #

        Frank is right, The government manpower doesnt even come lose to the amount of armed citizens there are in the country so everybody relax.

        • Reginald February 23, 2014 at 9:41 am #

          Frank is getting paid by the Feds so the waste of tax dollars is ok by him since he is getting paid to conform. The waste of my tax dollars is NOT ok by me. They are not shooting all that ammo. They are stacking it up in government bunkers waiting on the SHTF day. Obama is late on starting his army. He will always be outgunned by patriots who will take his stashes of ammo at the appropriate time. My 2 cents worth anyway.

          • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:07 pm #

            Really? I’m being paid by the Fed’s?

            You have proof of that?

            …my bank account says otherwise.

          • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 12:13 pm #

            Your comments are proof enough for me.

          • Brandon February 26, 2014 at 12:26 pm #

            Reginald – you want to disagree, go for it, but save the unfounded accusations for forums. If you can’t debate without ad hominems, you won’t be allowed to comment.

          • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

            Reginald – I’m REALLY easy to find. My schedule can be found here:http://www.fortressdefense.com/TrainingCalendar.html

            You’re welcome to personally stop by anytime and make your accusation to my face.

          • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 1:00 pm #

            I will have to pass. My work is in the oilfields hauling crude oil. I might take you up on it in 18 months when I retire and tour the country in my T.V. assuming we still have the freedom to do so. You have a good day. I will have to do my practising on the turtles that populate our ponds at the family ranch. I prefer moving targets to punching paper. Don’t be so thin skinned.

          • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 1:35 pm #

            ^^^^^ That was certainly easy to predict.

          • jim March 14, 2014 at 8:58 am #

            what about the 2.4 billion rounds of hollow point frank, and what about the 1,000,000 no hesitation targets that have pictures of a couple old folks taking a walk and the mother holding the baby or the other non threatening potential targets that the fed ordered was that just for fun, give me a break frank! The 2.4 billion rounds is enough ammo for a 30 year protracted war non stop in iraq, funny you didn’t mention the 2.4 billion hollow point rounds, and course those are just for practice hey frank!

          • Frank Sharpe March 14, 2014 at 11:57 am #

            Actually, Jim, I did mention the 2.2 Billion rounds ordered in a comment below. And I mentioned it in the article – not by number, but by caliber and design. But thank you for not noticing, as well as for repeating my name 3 times in your one-paragraph reply. (Granted, I’m only an amateur psychologist, but there is something odd with that behavior.)

            …anyway, as far as the targets go, I actually don’t have a problem with the concept of an older lady, a pregnant woman, or even a 10-year-old boy being a lethal threat. Of course, as a human being, such things disturb my soul, but that doesn’t preclude the fact that when such a person points a gun (or any other lethal weapon) at you with intent to murder, you might have to shoot them. Such things happen, and will continue to happen, both to citizens and police.

            In 2000 DPS Trooper Wade Vetter was murdered by a 72-year-old man who exited his vehicle with a rifle. The traffic stop was over a seatbelt violation.

            The average age of a school shooter is 14 1/2.

            Last month in Florida a pregnant woman drove herself and her 3 children into the ocean, attempting to murder them. The idea that she wouldn’t have tried to run over any officer standing in her way is probably not that far out of the realms of reality.

            …and there’s just no way a pregnant woman would kidnap and rob anyone at gunpoint.

            http://www.whio.com/news/news/local/pregnant-woman-pleads-guilty-abduction-robbery/nDxcH/

            And the idea that a 93-year-old woman would ever unjustly shoot at police is laughable.

            http://archive.news10.net/news/local/article/260945/2/Elderly-woman-accused-of-shooting-at-officers

            Women in their 70′s simply could not rob a bank with a gun and a box cutter…just impossible.

            http://www.lagazzettadelmezzogiorno.it/english/old-lady-robs-bank-in-tuscany-no700766/

            What I may, or may not, have an issue with is the scenario such targets are used in. The targets themselves can be used to represent real problems that actually occur in this world. It’s all about context, and the targets don’t offer enough of that for me to say they are bad or good. …and they don’t for you either. As usual, assumptions are made with out research, phone calls, or good old detective work.

            Again, I’m as distrustful of government as anyone. I like to keep a very close eye on all things government comes in contact with, and I could do without 95% of what they do…just for starters. But, I’m simply not buying that there is some grand scheme that includes mowing down US citizens for fun, based on nothing but ammunition purchase orders.

            You’re going to have to come up with better evidence than that.

      • don nono February 23, 2014 at 1:17 am #

        my question is this, how many rounds does the average police man or woman shoot in any given year? my thoughts on why the govt needed that many rounds was pure and simple, buy as much as you can, hell it isnt their money,and drive the prices way up,cause a shortage and guess what not as many rounds being bought by the average gun owner after the initial panic buying. Or the govt is just getting ready for the inevitable civil war here in the states. and why does the DHS wienies need snipers anyways?

        • jim March 18, 2014 at 11:27 am #

          Well franky you can question my sanity i really don’t care because as usual you are part of the problem and if you don’t think our military or police have intent, then you better bring up youtube and watch what happened in Boston and then you can go look at official army papers of how they plan to take peoples guns but thats ok! Don’t get any sand in your panties while your head is stuck down there or is it stuck up somewhere else!

          • Frank Sharpe March 18, 2014 at 1:12 pm #

            Nothing gets a person’s mind changed quicker than a well-reasoned, level-headed response, void of personal insults and innuendo!

            You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and I apologize for any distress I’ve caused you with my complete lack of rationality during this conversation.

          • Reginald March 18, 2014 at 3:22 pm #

            To Jim,
            I agree with some things you say but the Army can write all the field manuals, op orders, training manuals they want but the senior NCOs both active and retired will disobey any orders that violates their oath.

          • jim March 18, 2014 at 10:51 pm #

            i hope so but i had a friend at fort carson and when i asked him if he would attack civilians he said he would follow orders and that was the last time i talked with him and that was in 1997

      • don nono February 23, 2014 at 2:12 pm #

        frank you seem like a rational guy,even a expert in firearms and firearm training but still i have questions why the DHS needs that many rounds for their members.of those 100,000 armed agents out of 250,000 employees how many really need those pistols,m-16 style rifles and sniper rifles.so over 1/3 of all employes of the DHS agencies are armed. please, just doesnt make sense to me and those 1/3some how i dont think the social security offices need that many armed guards. how about the health and human services oh i bet they need guns, just to name two agencies. and before you call me a weirdo liberal i am not a liberal, weird maybe but not left leaning. except for children and those who can not fend for themselves.i am more of a libertarian. i just plain old believe the govt has other reasons for buying that much ammo. what those reasons are only they know. don

        • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:13 pm #

          If you want me to argue that the Fed’s don’t need that many armed agents, or even agencies, you’ll get nothing but silence.

          I’m as libertarian as they come, and I have no love for things like the Department of Education, Health and Human Services, the IRS, OSHA, DEA, etc…

          …but that still doesn’t mean the Federal Government is planning to round up and slaughter the citizens of this nation.

          The math on the rounds – the contract terms (dates of delivery) – availability – all add up to normal purchases under the current market circumstances.

          If you choose to believe otherwise, there’s not much I can do bout that. But belief does not necessarily equal truth. So if you find some serious hard evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

          • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 12:17 pm #

            Sorry Frank but you b.s. flies in the face of logic and no one is buying it

          • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 1:05 pm #

            You seem to have lots to say to me – we should talk in person! I’ll buy you lunch, even. After all, I can afford it with all that money I’m being paid by the Fed’s!

          • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 1:37 pm #

            I think we have more in common than you realize. I don’t buy into the FEMALE camp hype. I would like to have that lunch someday. Shoot me a line msghunter@yahoo

      • Shaun L March 27, 2014 at 1:26 pm #

        What you and others fail to realize is that we have been under martial law for a very long time now. All governments, police, sheriffs, cities, counties, states, etc. are owned and operated by private foreign corporations a.k.a. TREASON…Plain and simple! When you walk into any court, you can see the court marshals there! You are being court marshaled in a CORPORATE MILITARY setting!!! People need to wake up…and SOON!

        • Frank Sharpe March 27, 2014 at 7:32 pm #

          Assuming what you say is true, what in Gary Busey’s name does that have to do with government ammunition purchases?

  4. Shane Jones February 13, 2014 at 2:42 pm #

    Great article. Thanks for shedding some much needed light on the “dark government forces”.

  5. Scott At Shoot Smart February 13, 2014 at 5:13 pm #

    One of the other reasons for the shortage is even simpler to explain. There are over 80 million guns owners in the US. Maybe 10% of the 80 million shoot on a regular basis. For the other 90% having 2-3 boxes of ammunition on hand is all they ‘need.’

    Every time there is a crisis and gun control comes up a large portion of the 90% suddenly ‘need’ more ammunition. They then suck the normal inventory/supply chain dry within a matter of days or weeks. Last year it took six months for things to get back close to normal. For those of us who shoot for training or competition on a regular basis 10,000 to 30,000 rounds of ammo per year is normal.

    Even though my person inventory would seem large to the 90% it is normal to the 10%. That is why I still buy ammo whenever I come across it and my budget allows. With a shelf life of 50+ years you can’t have to much in stock.

  6. PaCo SGM (R) February 13, 2014 at 5:33 pm #

    I just figured the DHS snipers really sucked.

  7. TwoDollar Bill February 13, 2014 at 11:39 pm #

    To me, the point isn’t so much the amount of ammo; but rather, the amount of stateside government goobers chomping at the bit to play wannabe SpecOp. That is no conspiracy and that is troublesome.

    • Reginald February 14, 2014 at 10:21 am #

      I replied earlier about 20,000 rounds per cop being a waste of taxpayer dollars. I just realised that they also have to replace several firearms also. The military used to keep round counts on the M9 or Beretta 92F. They would be replaced at 5000 rounds. The feds are planning an assault on the American people. Our soldiers can defend us against terrorism if allowed to do so. This private army of Obamas is designed to force socialism down our throats.

      • Vance February 23, 2014 at 9:39 am #

        All you have to do is look at the Affordable Care Act to see that President Obama is NOT a socialist. The ACA is a huge gift to the PRIVATE insurance industry, and doesn’t include a “public option”.
        People who think that President Obama is a “socialist” obviously don’t know the meaning of the word.

        • Pierre Moeller February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm #

          I think what many of us concerned about is a distrust of centralized government power-whether we call it socialist, facist, statist, communist etc the end result is the same -dictatorship in one form or another.

        • jim March 14, 2014 at 9:02 am #

          The public option is coming you idiot!

  8. Michael p February 14, 2014 at 12:19 am #

    I am the trainer of last resort for newbie cops for a couple of small(20 sworn or less)….20000 rounds for these departments per year is bare bones for training and qualifications…. and there are roughly 700,000 cops in local jurisdictions, plus state and feds plus 80,000,000 civilians….of course there have been shortages…. same thing with reloading equipment and supplies.

    • Reginald February 14, 2014 at 9:10 am #

      20000 rounds to train a cop is a waste of taxpayer’s dollars. I retired from the Army and haven’t shot that many rounds in 24 years. Bet I can out shoot most cops.

      • TK February 14, 2014 at 2:20 pm #

        No one is suggesting 20k rounds per COP…he said per DEPARTMENT.

        • Reginald February 14, 2014 at 2:57 pm #

          I srand corrected. But you must see the government is planning for a war with We the People

      • regular guy February 15, 2014 at 4:56 pm #

        Retired from the Army….so you got 18 rounds to zero, 40 rounds to qual with your rifle two times a year? Phew! Watch out now, that’s some SERIOUS shooting! Even if you did some extra curricular activities the average joe doesn’t put more than a couple hundred rounds through his rifle each year….not exactly what I would call maintaining any level of proficiency.

        Most decent shooters go through at least 1k rounds a month, depending on cost. Those who are lucky shooter 100k a year or more.

        To your point though, you should probably define what you mean by “out shoot.” Prone supported on a pop up range? Please….

        • Reginald February 15, 2014 at 9:18 pm #

          It has been said that you never hear the one that kills you. Wasting tax dollars on frivolous practice is borderline criminal especially since I’m one of the potential targets.

          • T Russell February 15, 2014 at 9:36 pm #

            I have burned a few rounds for military qualification and also for police qualification. I am not familiar with anyone that burns the amount of ammo mentioned on this thread. Even when I was on a competition team we burned ammo, but nothing like what DHS is supposely using for target practice. The combination of things going on today should have people paying attention. The large government ammo purchases, purchases of 2700 armored vehicles, militarization of the police departments, government surveillance of every electronic form of communication. This does not paint a pretty picture.

          • Reginald February 15, 2014 at 9:41 pm #

            They aren’t burning up that many rounds they are stashing it. No what the apolgists on this thread say. If you disagree they slander you which is their progressive mindset showing

          • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:16 pm #

            Actually, Reginald, slander is stating that I’m on the Federal payroll.

          • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 12:21 pm #

            Even if you don’t work for the feds being an apologist for them still puts you on the wrong side of things. Slander hah give me a break.

  9. Reginald February 14, 2014 at 6:25 am #

    My reply is why do we need swat teams in the post office and snipers in the DHS you may be able to justify the numbers of rounds per shooter but you can’t justify the number of shooters in Obama’s private army.

    • Laird February 23, 2014 at 1:42 pm #

      Bingo! Nailed it.

  10. WP February 14, 2014 at 8:35 am #

    Oh my… A voice of sanity and rationality. I fully expect to see pigs flying and the snowball trade in hell pick up.

  11. LongShot February 14, 2014 at 8:55 am #

    When I saw the original reports of the Sniper Ammo purchase I thought the very same thing.,,’Wow, those guys should practice more. I have twenty percent of that myself.” It was accumulated over years and not in the heat of the shortage and high prices.
    With a rifle it’s critical to find out what it likes and stick with it. There’s no sense practicing with random cheap stuff because it won’t tell you anything except that this gun doesn’t like this ammo. What was purchased, 168 HP, was likely Federal Gold Match, which is generally accepted as the best available fuel for any decent rifle. If one is going to purchase a bulk for several individuals this is the obvious choice.

    The fact that this ammo is Hollow Point is likely another attention grabber because of the fury over the pistol HP ammo purchases. While I find it wasteful for the puplic servants to use this high quality pistol ammo for practice, that is just what they do. It’s understandable how the public would be angered to think that the agencies would be wasteful, knowing that HP ammo is more expensive, and in pistols, is more destructive. There isn’t a good reason that they couldn’t use enough of the good stuff once in a while to assure reliability, but shoot the volumes for practice with cheap stuff. However, in a rifle this 168 HP is simply the most consistent and accurate. Most of the time the HP collapses and acts like a solid. That is why they can use them in the sandbox wars since expanding bullets are forbidden in the Geneva Convention. Getting hit by a .308… it doesn’t really matter. The HP reference implies something neferious to the uninformed.

    I also noted tn the original article that the author referred to the Speer #13 manual and quoted how the 165 was the best bullet, blah, blah.. Hmmm. Speer #13 has been out for many years and is not up to date in any way. Second, the 165 is a soft point, not a HP. It’s made by Speer, not Sierra, as is the 168 HP referred to, and in no way the same bullet. The original author was not qualified to address his subject.

  12. LongShot February 14, 2014 at 9:41 am #

    Went back to the original article and it appears the order was for Hornaday A-Max. Still not a Speer bullet.

  13. MrApple February 14, 2014 at 9:56 am #

    And what about the other Government agencies that seemingly shouldn’t need to be armed to the teeth? Why exactly does the the Department of Education, NOAA, the Postal Service, and the EPA need a well armed branch?

  14. GoneWithTheWind February 14, 2014 at 10:29 am #

    Something is wrong with your explanation. If the border patrol has more then 141 snipers it would be a total and unlawful waste of money. To my knowledge the border patrol has never used or even deployed a sniper and if they did shot some illegal immigrant the press would be all over them. Something is very wrong with the story and your explanation.

    • Kip Dellinger February 22, 2014 at 9:56 pm #

      yes the argument here is very one dimensional. ammo blammo. how about the CLEAR over reach of police in what, 70,000 cases of illegal searches and the associated deaths from innocent people? 2500 MRAPS, we now have one in our small town in SW Colorado, in the middle of nowhere? Why is that? and the military/national guard training to fight terrorist groups now ID’s]d as believers in the 2nd Amendment, Liberty and associated beliefs? Sorry, but your argument is as I said one-dimensional. At best.

      • Brandon February 22, 2014 at 9:59 pm #

        The post is about ammo, not the militarization of police.

        • Reginald February 22, 2014 at 10:04 pm #

          The buying of massive amounts of ammo and the militarization of the police is one and the same wake up.

        • Pierre Moeller February 23, 2014 at 11:13 am #

          It seems to me that the one (excessive amounts of ammo) allows/leads to the other (the militarization)?

          • Brandon February 23, 2014 at 11:58 am #

            The ammo purchases/solicitations that most folks are upset about are made by the federal government, not local PD.

          • Pierre Moeller February 23, 2014 at 12:27 pm #

            You are correct sir I should have clarified thank you

          • Reginald February 23, 2014 at 2:07 pm #

            The local police are being given armored vehicles to assault who? The feds are stockpiling ammo for the departments with socialist leanings.

  15. Grampa February 14, 2014 at 10:37 am #

    First locate where these rounds will be kept. They will be very busy and wont guard this storage very well. If they are removed from the governments safekeeping they cant use them.
    They still need people that can shoot these rounds. How many skilled marksmen do they have? These marksmen are highly trained patriots. How many will fire on a citizen? I see many problems that these desk jockeys not used to the real world are going to have. Like everything the government does is not well thought out. We have how many veterans in this country that have been trained with their own methods and whos skills equal or exceed those who would fire on a citizen. The ones who would want only power and see this as a way to get it. I see people who think that because they deserve to rule they will do anything to get it. These people however tend to be the low achievers looking for a shortcut to the top. They will be dispatched quickly for they will be outnumbered. Our government had problem with people barely out of the stone age what will they do with real skilled people who know all the government military methods?
    Grampa

  16. ensitue February 14, 2014 at 11:25 am #

    Some pundits are more beholden to TPTB then others I suppose. After what happened to Breitbart it’s no wonder PPL are shaking in their Operator’s Boots (pure cyanide, when inhaiied produces symptoms of a lethal heart attack)

    • Brandon February 14, 2014 at 11:26 am #

      LOL…are you calling Frank a pundit?

  17. Brenda February 14, 2014 at 12:19 pm #

    Great article! Level headed analysis! I like that! Thanks! Now I’m going to go buy some ammo!

    • Reginald February 14, 2014 at 1:37 pm #

      An explanation that millions of rounds of ammo for 10s of thousands of federal agents is justified shows how stupid the average American is. The army Obama is equipping is not to protect us it is tobenslave us. WAKE UP…

      • TK February 14, 2014 at 2:18 pm #

        Turn the batshit crazy down a bit Reginald…they’re gonna need more than some .308 and .40 rounds to “enslave us”. There are serious issues with our government, but they’re not going door to door with their current capabilities.

  18. Guttcheck February 14, 2014 at 2:00 pm #

    Some good points made, and some that are lacking. I am a 25 yr veteran of the largest sheriffs dept in the U.S., and we are prepared for civil unrest if for nothing else than the obvious problems with the economy. If the social safety net should fail for any reason, acts of God or man, the nations largest cities are at risk. You simply cannot have 50 mil or more Americans dependent on govt aid and not be prepared for the possibilities of social collapse. As far as the explanation for 40 cal hollow point training for Feds, I’ll take it at face value. And then use the fact that the domestic armed federal security force has expanded this much as clear evidence they know in Washington we are headed for a system failure of some kind. And don’t get me started on issues of posse comitatus and why such a massive budget like DHS doesn’t partially go where it’s most useful, local law enforcement. Train with hollow point? We are happy just to qualify every month with department issued rounds. Seriously my man, who needs more training with hollow point ammo, me pushing a radio car everyday, or some wannabe spec ops fed whose in the field a few times a month?

  19. Ir0nw0lfe February 14, 2014 at 4:25 pm #

    I love how just a little innuendo brings out the crazy in even the sanest of normal shooters. I train Feds all the time. I can’t speak for DHS as they are as screwed as any Agency I’ve worked with but there are several fed again cues that train on both duty hollow points and ball practice ammo. Second, most fed LEOs are required to qualify 4 times a year with their sidearm. That’s just on qualification course per agent . Most average around 50 rounds per course of fire. Mind I just talking handguns.now add in actual practice and training courses, not to mention the agencies which allow their LEOs to

    • Ir0nw0lfe February 14, 2014 at 4:33 pm #

      Agencies not again cues

  20. Ir0nw0lfe February 14, 2014 at 4:32 pm #

    Cont. qualify with more than one weapon. 800+ rounds per year is nothing. I can give plenty more examples but ask this does anyone really believe that the vast majority of these LEOs are any happier with the current administration than the rest of us? No. And they are not going to hat blindly mow down civilians because done asshat thinks it’s a good time for a revolution under Obama. Time to step away from the crazy juice and go for a walk. Too many cheap b grade Hollywood movies have messed with your head.

  21. Rick Colliver February 14, 2014 at 5:00 pm #

    Thanks, Frank…good article…good analysis! I have some friends who are instructors in federal LE programs and they always shake their heads about the idea of Uncle Sam hoarding ammo…because they really have to scrounge for it too! Be safe!

  22. MarkOwen February 14, 2014 at 7:11 pm #

    Well if the gov’t is buying all this ammo, someone is getting rich, remember the $500.00 toilet seat? I would sell them ammo if I could make an extra $100.00 a box too. Someone is getting rich and it sure as hell isn’t me.

  23. David February 14, 2014 at 7:21 pm #

    Ironwolf you make my point. 50 rounds for a qual per quarter with ball AND hollow point plus practice! We should be so fortunate. How about a 25 round qual will ball ammo, another 25 if your buddy is working the range, or you don’t qual the first go round. Practice is on our time and our dime, the average guy who wants to be proficient but has a family (cost) is dry firing with a snap cap. So lets see, average beat cop making hundreds of contacts a week compared with bob bitchen who unless he’s on a rare high risk warrant detail is pushing paper, and who gets the money to piss away on hollow points for training at 800+ rounds per yr? Always great to get an in field request to be the “color guard” on a clear warrant raid, rollin up in your busted ass radio car and they’re waiting at the C.P. geared up like a recon unit in bagdad… Its not the hoarding that annoys me, its the usual washington waste. But I understand you guys being down, if they’re gonna spend it you may as well get paid teaching the fellas.

  24. T Russell February 14, 2014 at 9:50 pm #

    Frank,

    Its not the 141,000 sniper rounds I would be concerned with. I would be more concerned with the 2.2 Billion (yes, with a B, DHS ordered last year). With 70,000 (not 100,0000) armed officers, that means they are burning more ammo per officer than we burned in Iraq. Do you suppose they purchased 2717 MRAP armored vehicles to simply haul their ammunition?

    • Frank Sharpe February 15, 2014 at 12:35 pm #

      Ok – my reply:

      DHS can order 2.2 billion rounds all they want, good luck to them on delivery. I ordered 6 thousand 2 months ago, and I doubt I’ll see it before summer.

      Government ammo purchases amount for less that 5% of the total market. Manufacturers do fill government contracts, but there is lots of “pain-in-the-ass” that goes with it, not the least of which is waiting for payment 90, 180, or more, days for payment.

      Some ammo companies are YEARS behind in orders right now. There are literally orders pending for 2016 delivery. DHS is not doing anything that the rest of us aren’t. There’s a shortage, and they’re getting their order in for future delivery.

      The 2.2 billion you’re talking about still only amounts to around 4 years of MINIMAL practice and qualification. DHS agents qualify 4 times a year, so the 2.2 billion still only amounts to 4 years of practice and qualification…something around 5000-rounds per agent, per year. But that is not taking into consideration the massive amounts that groups like the Air Marshalls fire.

      The Air Marshalls have 4000 armed agents under DHS. I personally know a former Air Marshal who now works for another three letter agency – when he was an Air Marshall, he was shooting 1000-1500 PER WEEK, with a 300-round quarterly qualification. That is a minimum of 56,000 rounds per agent for practice, and 1200 for qualification per year. That’s 224-million for practice and another 4.8 million for qualification JUST FOR THE AIR MARSHALS, PER YEAR!

      At FLETC, during training, a PALLET of ammo is placed between every two agent candidates, and they shoot it up over the SEVEN week program.

      I just don’t think it is registering with everyone how much ammo the government goes through.

      • Reginald February 15, 2014 at 4:30 pm #

        The feds must be terrible shots if they have to WASTE that much ammo to qualify. I would shoot more if someone else was buying the ammo. Bottom line is they are practising to fight with the American people. We have the Army to defend us against foreign enemies that are practising to defeat the right wing terrorists like the veterans and the rural sherrif. Their words not mine.

  25. 101st Airborne Division February 15, 2014 at 11:04 am #

    Screw it. It’s perception that’s disturbing. They are less than honorable..if you believe what they say on most levels…..ur an idiot. I told my family after 5 years in 1stSOCOM if I died don’t believe a word of what they tell you. FTS. Lock and load. Prepare to defend yourselves because whatever is happening it ain’t good.

    • Reginald February 15, 2014 at 11:22 am #

      I understand that several of people on this forum make a living training the feds. Who are they planning combat with? I’ll give you a hint the sheriff is not wearing a white hat anymore. He is wearing a black Kevlar helmet, body armor and has replaced his horse with a MEAL. Wake up you are NOT training the good guys.

      • Frank Sharpe February 15, 2014 at 12:41 pm #

        I don’t make a living training Feds, or local PD’s, just for the record.

        The Fed’s and police I train pay me out of their own pockets because the firearms training they are receiving in their given agency is not up to par.

        I would agree that there are many things we as citizens should be concerned about with the direction law enforcement is taking in this nation, but ammo purchases ain’t one of ‘em.

  26. MarkOwen February 15, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

    I’ve been stating for a couple of years now, The Feds have been moving men and materials to the four corners of the lower 48 mostly at night and under the guise of National security. Something is going on and they won’t let any civilians in on their plans. WHY?

  27. Scott February 16, 2014 at 10:15 am #

    Your article pretty much sums up the opinion I’ve always had about government ammo purchases. I, myself, will shoot a few hundred rounds each time I go to the range which is at least once per week. I have, however, somewhat changed my tune as of late.
    There are government agencies buying weapons and ammo that do need to do some explaining. The I.R.S., the Department of Education, the U.S. Postal service, and the Social Security Administration have all entered the weapons and ammo purchasing race. Why? There ‘IS’ something going on. It may not be a planned purge of the citizenry by government but I have no doubt that they are purchasing ammo for reasons other than practice.
    Guesses?
    1. They are preparing for economic downturn
    2. They are planning to make ammo prohibitively expensive through taxation, supplier regulation, and monopolizing the market on ammo purchasing. Shutting down lead smelting plants will increase dramatically the cost of manufacturing, driving up prices. Ammo taxation nearly always makes it’s way into each and every anti-gun legislation bill. The government, of course, would be exempt. The government takes priority over private sales as ammo comes off the production line. Manufacturers will re-tool their lines to accommodate large orders from repeat customers. I know. I have been in the manufacturing industry for 20 years. Let’s not forget, even if the manufacturer wanted to forgo selling to the government, which their stockholders would never allow, the government can mandate it.
    3. They are simply buying up everything they can to keep it out of the hands of gun owners. Having one agency buying up all of the ammo would not only be un-budgeted but would set off alarms everywhere. Neither the President nor Congress could ever fly that by the American people. It would start an even larger panic that would demand thorough explanation, in which case, those who made those decisions would be impeached or a possible civil war would start. I think what they are doing is taking slush money, budgeted for contingencies, from as many agencies as they can to make these purchases. They couldn’t ask Congress for the money up front but created plenty of fluff in their emergency reserves. They knew what they were doing.

    The American people and businesses are also keeping the shelves bare. Scalping has become an epidemic! Much the same as described above, huge ammo purchases are being made by companies who supply our market. The manufacturer takes an order for 20 million rounds. The purchasing supplier has five customers who make up 90% of his sales. Who do you think is going to get first priority? The problem is that three of those customers don’t supply their stores. They jack the prices up and sell them online instead of servicing their accounts. This drives many private citizens to stock up on everything they can.
    Here is another reason shelves are bare. Guns and ammo are like gold! What other investment can you make where you are virtually assured of appreciation? Ammo will never go down in price, it lasts for a lifetime, and more than likely will be worth five times what it is today, in 10 years. You could buy a .22 shell for $.02 in 2008. In 2013 it cost $.10 – $.25 ea. I have even seen them as high as a half dollar. That is insanity but shows the value the American people put on ammo. Even gold has never shown growth like ammo. At least not in the last 50 years.
    Hmmm…maybe we should be looking into our government officials’ stock portfolios. That might be some interesting reading and give u some insight on what is going on.
    Face it, our government and the military industrial complex (which includes ammunition manufacturers) are doing what will make them more rich and powerful. Firearms legislation is not about keeping citizens safe. It is about power, control, and wealth…PERIOD!!!!!

    • Frank Sharpe February 16, 2014 at 10:28 pm #

      Well, you said “PERIOD!!!!!”…I guess that means your couldn’t possibly be wrong.

      …your lack of even the most basic knowledge of where ammo producers procure their lead pretty much nullifies your theories.

      • scott February 17, 2014 at 10:01 am #

        Frank,
        I am well aware of the fact that ammo manufacturers do not purchase virgin lead…or even buy their lead from U.S. lead producers. That does not, however, change the realities of what effect closures will have on the market. Increasing demands met by decreasing raw material production equals shortages, which increases costs due to material handling and greed. Even reclaimed lead will bring a premium. Your lack of even the most basic knowledge about economics pretty shows how ignorant you are to post negative comments about someone who is making sense!
        Oh, BTW, when I said period!!! I did mean about that subject I’m sure. It is not difficult to find lawmakers who’ll admit it.
        Please feel free to school me some more though. Thanks for your comment.

        • Frank Sharpe February 17, 2014 at 8:49 pm #

          The smelter everyone is so concerned about hasn’t produced lead for years – it’s just finally “officially” shut down. It in no way, shape or form has any connection to present ammunition prices or availability. Ammunition manufacture consumes about 3% of all lead production world-wide, car batteries consume FOUR FITHS.

          Instead of getting worked up about ammo, perhaps you should be more concerned about how you’ll be starting your car.

  28. MarkOwen February 16, 2014 at 4:48 pm #

    At least we can be sure that there are 80 to 90 percent of the Feds. and LEOs that have Families that they would want to protect. Sure there are a few gung hos out there that have a gun and a badge and automatically become 10 feet tall and bullet proof. Can’t wait to kick some civilian ass. You see it all the time on u-tube some assholes can’t wait to give john public the shaft just because they can. Constitution be damned!

  29. DaShui February 22, 2014 at 6:24 pm #

    My friend is a dhs agent. He says nobody in his office trains much, except himself. He use 150 rounds a month.

  30. Andy D. February 22, 2014 at 11:14 pm #

    I used to be a Deputy , at our department we qualified every three months , we only shot 100rounds per qualification , 50rounds for practice then turn around and fire 50 rounds for qualification , we had to score at least a 70% on hits , but everyone shot way better than this , what I am getting to is that unless the Feds do not follow the NRA level of qualification they are wasting a lot of ammo , or there actually is an agenda out ther ! Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.

  31. William Wallace February 23, 2014 at 12:52 am #

    While this is one man’s opinion, I couldn’t help but wonder why he made no mention of the over two billion rounds on order and what on earth all this ammo is to be used for ? Nor did he mention the militarizing and arming of almost all federal agencies not known to need military style firepower such as the Social Security administration and other non law enforcement type agencies of the government. Sorry, his explanations didn’t make me feel any better about my federal government!

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:20 pm #

      I addressed that in an above response.

  32. Chris February 23, 2014 at 7:25 am #

    I’m active duty and 800 plus rounds per main is a large ammount as far as I’m concerned. Various training classes set up or initial qualification typically run that or higher per man but a regular requal? A normal requalification for my branch runs roughly 100 rounds for the 3 varients of 9M qualifications we take. Hey I’m no expert here but 800 rounds per man is a heck of a lot of ammo if you ask me.

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 1:02 pm #

      It sounds like it, but in reality it’s not shit.

      My students can burn that in one 20-hour course, and we don’t waste ammo.

      The fact is that most Federal and local PD training/qualification programs suck. It’s not the amount of ammo they use, it’s how they use it that I have a problem with. It is a waste because at the end of the day most agents still can’t shoot all that well, especially under stress.

      Yes, your tax money is being wasted – on multiple levels. But one thing it is not being wasted on is the implementation of a secret plan to round you up and put you in a FEMA camp.

  33. Bill parsons February 23, 2014 at 8:29 am #

    The stated article says 40 cal is for just pistols is not true the government has a half a dozen sub machine gun models that use this caliber and it is effective to 200 yards.

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 12:37 pm #

      …and Americans have safes full of rifles effective from 800 to 1500+ yards. Good luck to them with their pistol caliber subguns.

      There are 100-million armed Americans. If even 1% resisted an armed federal incursion, we would have 1 to 1 fight, on our home ground, with superior arms. Raise that number to 5%, and you have a slaughter.

      Such things (for the sake of academics) have been computer war-gamed at the Pentagon, and every time the government loses.

      Has it ever occurred to any of you believing in this conspiracy that vesting in it actually makes you impotent? It draws energy away that you could be using to fight real political battles that might effect real steps towards liberty.

      I find it lazy.

      It’s so much easier to convince yourself to spend money on your 15th rifle because the Feds are coming to get you than it is to write letters, meet with your reps, go to city council meetings or run for office. Hell, who’s even taken the time to meet with their local police chiefs or bothered to sit with a patrol officer and buy him or her a cup of coffee. A little human interaction goes a long way…or you can just look at them with fear from a distance.

      I agree that our nation is on the cusp of perilous times, but in my opinion it has more to do with a general public laziness (on multiple levels) than it does with some grand conspiracy.

      You get what you pay for, so think about the checks you’re writing and what you’re investing in.

      • Reginald February 26, 2014 at 12:44 pm #

        I’ve written faxed and met in person my elected representatives. I went to DC on 9-12-19 with many thousands more. Congress does not listen. The ballot box will not fix our problems. Too many deadbeats vote for more and more handouts. The tree of liberty must be refreshed by the blood of patriots said Thomas Jefferson. For the record I can only shoot 2 guns at a time so I stock up on ammo food and fuel.

        • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 1:33 pm #

          Too little, too late – you decided to make personal attacks anonymously from behind a keyboard. …and that’s all I need to know about you to understand that anything you type, or any point you try to make, is invalid.

          No point in wasting any more time addressing it.

      • cglabb March 18, 2014 at 12:04 am #

        The ebb and flow of this topic has gone from reason to ridiculous but you have really hit the nail on the head with this lucid and grounded response. A very informative gun enthusiast and instructor in my recent pistol permit class shared the same advice. Get involved! If one ear isn’t listening grab another. I’m writing this from the hot spot of controversy in Ct. There is a rally being held here shortly and if 10% of firearm owners show up we can’t be ignored. As global as this world is becoming our potential loss of freedoms are confining and stifling what we love about this country the most. Be aware, be vigilant,
        but be involved.

        • Frank Sharpe March 18, 2014 at 9:51 am #

          With you guys in CT all the way – keep up the fight! And please let everyone know how we can help, and where we can donate to.

  34. Pierre Moeller February 23, 2014 at 11:03 am #

    I am not prone to believe in any conspiracy theories, whether about how JFK really died, is Jimmy Hoffa really buried somewhere or still alive, or did you really see Elvis? So, yeah, no ammo conspiracy, I would agree. What does concern me is that this ammo is for the continued militarization of our “policing” forces. Peacekeepers, as our uniformed modern day police forces once were regarded as, are necessary. As are detectives, and to a much lesser extent certain types of SWAT forces. NOAA does not need shotguns. Homeland Security shouldn’t even exist. It doesn’t seem to bother anyone calling it “Homeland” Security does it? It didn’t bother the Germans when Hitler kept referring to the “Fatherland” either. Government is a necessary evil, not something to be exalted or excused. Democracy is a horrible form of Government, but better than anything else man has tried-that’s why we have a democracy, and used to have a Republic. Capitalism is not an ideal, it is the lesser of all evils, allocation through brute force (economic or otherwise)yet we live in a Capitalistic system (though its slowly dying) by choice because it is the best there is. It amazes me how little men that should know better don’t bother to think about the bigger picture. Yes the amount of ammo is not excessive for training so many snipers. Why does the border patrol or whoever need so many snipers may I ask, they are not allowed to use force to defend themselves anyway unless violently attacked first by armed men, and even then they are hand tied. Read the news. Our Government does not need to train every division in it for armed conflict. Some Police, and some FBI yes. A militarized police force, overzealous SWAT teams, armored vehicles from Iraq and Afghanistan are not what I want to see in my neighborhood. An armed citizenry yes, that I want. Making out as if the boy is crying wolf, when some nut job like Alex Jones cries conspiracy is fine. But saying the government won’t act “tyrannically” with just handguns is not a true statement. For most people an armed representative of the government telling you what to do is intimidating. And that’s the problem here. No conspiracy. Just the increased ability to use implied force. So I agree, no conspiracy. But just as much as I don’t listen to Alex Jones, I believe you are mistaken in playing down the very real threat that the government poses when it arms nearly every division of government. The fact that you have a rifle and they a handgun is irrelevant. Effective armed resistance by today’s is much less likely than all the conspiracy theories put together. Be real. When the neighborhood watch comes to your home with a county deputy and two army reserve cadets (all of whom you probably know) and asks to “inspect” your firearms for compliance with the next absurd law, or your pantry so that if you have “too much” they can share it to others for you, or worse, they accuse you of hoarding, how much will the statement that you have a rifle and they only have handguns mean then, especially with your wife and children standing behind you? Please let me say that I think its great that your a firearms instructor, but that also perhaps that shades your views a bit, as you are comfortable defending yourself. Most citizens do not understand how to behave in conflict, let alone armed conflict. There will be no pitched battles for control of this country. The conspiratorial Jack Boots won’t kick in everyone’s doors at once.It will, and is, happening slowly, like a thief in the night. Intimidation is selective and used most effectively when only the hint of force is implied. That’s my concern with what I see to be an overly aggressive government. Now, on the other hand, what about the last lead smelter being closed in the USA (EPA regs killed it) and therefore all lead being refined overseas soon. That I am not happy about and does cause me concern. Since the lead will now be imported it will be subject to a whole host of government controls, usually resulting in higher prices and scarcity. Even reloading will become a rich man’s game. And is it true that the military is moving towards using non lead bullets?

    • Brandon February 23, 2014 at 12:17 pm #

      You made several points that I agree with. Yes, supposedly the military will switch to “green” ammo by 2018. We shall see.

      • Pierre Moeller February 23, 2014 at 12:31 pm #

        I should also correct myself, in that I am wrong in saying the smelter closure will affect ammo production directly. I agree as stated here only recycled lead is used. My concern is thatnot having an indigenous smelting capacity, is disdvantageous to us overall. As long as world trade is healthy its not a problem, but the world is not tat stable.

        • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 6:56 pm #

          I completely agree.

          It bothered me 20-years ago when I read that many of the components for the M1 Abrams were manufactured overseas. I distinctly remember saying to myself: heaven help us if were ever invaded.

          That still doesn’t mean it’s anything more than politics and stupidity.

  35. sam February 26, 2014 at 5:03 pm #

    when was the last time border patrol used a sniper to kill someone? seriously. 141k rounds.

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 6:52 pm #

      Dunno.

      When was the last time your local PD used a sniper to kill someone? …my guess is that it’s probably not been recently, if ever. But, I bet they still have one or two training on a regular basis just in case. Every law enforcement agency of any size has snipers to protect field agents serving warrants and performing other duties, as well as for potential hostage situations that may arise.

      Border patrol has a number of duties, which include dignitary protection as well as narco interdiction in foreign countries. BORTAC is the special operations group of the Border Patrol – they have conducted operations in over 20 countries, if memory serves me right. They also provide training to foreign police agencies.

      And for those unfamiliar with the Mexican Drug War that is spilling over into the US, you might want to look into it. Once you do, the question would be: Why wouldn’t the Border Patrol have snipers?

      Say what you want about the militarization of the police, but one thing the Federal Government is required to Constitutionally do is secure the borders.

      …once again, really don’t think the majority of you here realize how much ammo our government goes through, lol.

  36. Reginald February 26, 2014 at 6:39 pm #

    BORTAC is the special ops unit (snipers) of the border patrol. They have been deployed in 28 different countries. Why aren’t they used only on our border.

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 6:59 pm #

      Oooo! Someone knows how to look things up on Wiki!

      • Pierre Moeller February 26, 2014 at 7:05 pm #

        that got me laughing good one

  37. czamdesigner February 26, 2014 at 7:51 pm #

    Way I see this is DHS has every right to purchase ammo and I wont question it as it is a government agency. Where I do question is when Department of Education buys ammunition and firearms and creates a swat team, or Social Security as well… Then I think more people should be asking the questions over that more then anything else… my 2 cents!

    • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 8:15 pm #

      As I stated earlier, I don’t think their should even be a Department of Education. However, the Dof E is not directly armed, the Department of Education’s Inspector General’s Office is. That office is responsible for fraud investigations and misappropriation of funds, etc… They actually do police work, and they do come in contact with real criminals.

      I’m not aware that they have a SWAT team, though. I do remember the big panic everyone went into when they purchased 27 870′s a few years back, which was also, in reality, a non-issue considering that offices responsibilities.

      • Frank Sharpe February 26, 2014 at 9:25 pm #

        “…think THERE should…” – excuse me.

  38. Valentine39 March 11, 2014 at 4:38 pm #

    I have found an estimate of the number of active shooters supported by DHS purchasing authority. That number is 70,000. If a police force of 50 needs 100,000 rounds per year it is reasonable for a force of 70,000 to need 1.4 million rounds a year. Over 5 years that would be about 7 million rounds NOT 1 BILLION rounds. What is going on there?

    • Frank Sharpe March 11, 2014 at 7:33 pm #

      You need to double-check your math.

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